The majority of the community sucks (or does it?)

[snaek]

@fril
i like your analogy very much.
people use calculators to get the answer because they hate math = people use pve skills to get the rewards because they hate guild wars

people want the answer to a math problem, but they use the answer for more things, i.e. figuring out your budget.
now i must ask, what is so important about gw rewards? can its importance be justified by using a tool to get straight to the answer?

Originally Posted by dreamwind

Which is why I wouldn't mind if skill was the only determining factor in how much wealth people have. Maybe then we would have a lot more people trying to be skilled. This grind/farm mentality is the complete opposite of skill.

i agree. i do think it has a lot to do with mentality. people care more bout titles/rewards than gameplay. but i do not think players are the only ones to blame--anet promoted this type of mentality.

[Rocky Raccoon]

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Hence the OP (which is far off the current discussion): how do we teach them? Yes individually, good, no collective progress is made here (or shall the vets have a "duty" to help newbies, but not noobs?). Collectively, as a GW community, how do we change the situation? Wiki, not really very pedagogic (but useful). PvP tutorials? Not a good transition from the average low skill to the PvP entry point. We need more of the "basic tutorials" you can get here on Guru, from time to time. Other ideas?

I admire your attempt to to bring the topic to your original premise. I think before any teaching can be done the students must want to be taught.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by al_capowned

It sucks that balance at this point is out of the question but I love seeing a new GW base meshing with an old GW base and hoping for the best...

I think it is important looking for the possible too. If we hope for the best, and that best is too much, we will be disappointed.

For example, a balance where every group of mobs in the game has a 50% chance to win and is always challenging is a bit impossible.

Look at a place with 300 mobs, so call it between 35-40 groups, leading to 35-40 confrontations.

40 battles where you have 50% of losing, means the statistical chance of beating all the mobs in the area is 0.5^40=9.09E-13 or 9.09E-11%. I've a better chance of winning the damn jackpot of 100 million euros this friday.

In a game where are saves, quick-saves, check points, levels, there is no problem, since you can reload and each fight will start at 50% chance.

But on GW, it would take loads of time (read months if not years) to vanquish a single area!

Of course, once you find a build that wins once, it will again and again, getting very close to 100% chance of winning. You can still mess up but its harder and harder. Consumables, for example, decrease the chance of losing because of mistakes.

Even between humans, the chance isn't obviously 50% in every match, Some teams are just better than others. The bigger the differences, the more it deviates to 50%.

Then there is the argument that people just use unskillful overpowered builds and those skills should be nerfed to promote build variety and player skill.

But look at it. When a GvG guild, skillful undoubtedly, finish DoA using a tank-and-spank build (obsidian flesh and Searing Flames Eles, and they failed to use cry of pain?!?), its agreat display of skill and achievement. If a random PuG does the same, using the same tactics they are noobs.

Some 18 moths - 2 years ago, Avarre made a very nice post about how duality, based on paragons and most precisely Save yourselves paragons, is such a must better concept that the holy trinity tank and spank builds. Today Imbagons are considered cheese builds.

So what changed?

Basically, there were very few people using both those builds in the beginning. As time passed, more and more people, either learned those builds from other people, learned about them in the internet or even rediscovered them.

As more and more people use them, those builds stop being seen as elite and start to been as gimmick, noobie, no skill builds and should be nerferd and AI should be remade to counter them.

Ok, researching a build takes time and needs knowledge, but either the build required skill to run or it didn't. Mobs always react the same, they don't distinguish between skillful and unskillful player.

In GvG, 2 sides using the same build won't mean a draw - the most skillful side wins (unless exceptional circumstances). So a PuG finishing DoA using the exact same build as a top GvG team, means they can at least mimic it with enough precision to beat the AI.

You can't hide a build forever. Even if you hide it, someone else sooner or later will (re)discover it, because they are already in the game. No one is creating something new.

But just because something becomes common knowledge, that doesn't mean it has to be removed from the game.

Have you ever though, how did people discover the bridge trick in urgoz? Was it some Anet worker? Or someone had to have a loo break and stopped there and then people noticed no mobs would spawn, since the rest of the team kept on going? Or by some other mean?

Should that trick be removed now because loads of people know about it?

It would be as if I couldn't talk about Darwin evolution theory because I didn't thought about it in the first place! And I know shit loads more about it than Darwin ever knew!

Some complain that now people take much less time to do stuff and they don't even know as much as they did. They just mindless use them.

Well, that is supposed to happen. The veterans were the explorers. They had to learn everything from the beginning. When other people start, they drink on the pool of knowledge available.

In real life, there are Patents, to give an edge to reward the ingenuity. But those patents have an end of life too. Just make no sense keeping the knowledge forever locked in a secret vault.

But this is a game. It isn't real. While you were playing you were having fun. That is what you paid for.

So, a 50%-50% win-lose against numerous AI opponents in a game without saves, forever challenging with GW2?

Keep dreaming. It won't happen.

Nerfing the builds that work once to keep players discovering new builds and challenged for loads of time?

It wont work either. One day you will just see they are just cheating by destroying your builds. Most likely it wont even matter, because AI is dumbass and will always fight the same. You will just be using different named skills to exploit the same weakness again and again.

Random spawns?

Might keep the challenge a bit, but if it creates a 50-50 win-lose chance in areas with 40+ battles, just forget it.

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Also Improvavel you didn't respond to my last post. How many people here would be fine if a 10 billion damage skill and god mode was in Guild Wars?

The people that aren't idiots, know this isn't real life, can achieve fun for themselves only needing themselves and/or their friends.

You can use that god mode 10 million (or billion if you prefer it), farm all, get all the items all the titles have more money that you need 3 accounts to store it, dance in front of me, shouting "Look look I'm so good" and I will just pick my GF, my friends and go play and have a laugh ot TS, then make some meeting dinner (real life, already did some) and have FUN!

You would be there, alone or surrounded by other pathetic kids, that think success and wealth in a game against AI means anything in real life.

If it was a game involving real money it would be different. But it isn't.

(DISCLAIMER: The "you" in this post is post is no one in particular. My view about those "you" that think like that though, is that they are pathetic children that suck at life.)

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

They wouldn't mind, because it's exactly like in RL: if I ask you to solve a Maths problem (not an artificial one, one directly in line with your job, see this video at 0:35 for an example of what I'm talking about), you're very likely to take your calculator (how many times have I seen that in my tutorials?) and try to calculate the solution with it. This is your 10billion damage skill and there are so many more examples from RL where the tool removes the need to get the "skill".

While I know what you mean, that is ridiculous degree level students being unable to do either mental mathematical operations (and these aren't trained nowadays. My grandfather that had poor education was very good at doing real complex additions/multiplications/divisions mentally) or even paper and pencil ones, the fact is sometimes you just need to use maths as a tool without knowing it how it works precisely.

And us humans, as a species, aren't very good at abstract thought. It's a sub product of our evolution in median sized world, moving at median speeds, with somewhat short life spans, and for most of the time, the ability to read other people emotions and relate with them and "motivating them" to do our bidding, was our most important skill.

It isn't uncommon, to see high emotional intelligent persons, some with very low studies, creating quite large companies, hiring much higher educated people. Emotional intelligence is something that isn't very well focused on school either.

Basically as a species, humans are generalists, capable of doing loads of stuff, but as individuals we are specialists. There is too much too know, too many fields of knowledge. In some you will just have the slightest idea, and in your field of choice you will excel. And I'm not just talking about sciences. Concierges, farmers, whatever, if they are specialized they will know more and have more experience than someone else.

How many here can build from scratch a PC? I'm not talking about assembling the pieces, but probably some in here can't even do that, just creating one from scratch.

I bet a very small minority. Some will know the basics of the theories needed.

But hey you are using it. And you don't know how to build one.

We rely on other people, to have more, achieve more as a society.

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

They wouldn't mind, because it's exactly like in RL: if I ask you to solve a Maths problem (not an artificial one, one directly in line with your job, see this video at 0:35 for an example of what I'm talking about), you're very likely to take your calculator (how many times have I seen that in my tutorials?) and try to calculate the solution with it. This is your 10billion damage skill and there are so many more examples from RL where the tool removes the need to get the "skill".

I don't think you can compare this to a calculator. You can compare it to a computer program that does all the work for you so you don't even have to do any math.

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

My point is: "player skill" is a very relative/subjective thing...

...We need more of the "basic tutorials" you can get here on Guru, from time to time. Other ideas?

That begs the question...what kind of basic tutorial are you talking about if player skill is subjective.

Originally Posted by snaek

people use calculators to get the answer because they hate math = people use pve skills to get the rewards because they hate guild wars

Interesting thought. Maybe people hate Guild Wars more than they realize...well at least they hate what it was meant to be.

EDIT TO INCLUDE PREVIOUS POST

Originally Posted by Improvavel

The people that aren't idiots, know this isn't real life, can achieve fun for themselves only needing themselves and/or their friends.

You can use that god mode 10 million (or billion if you prefer it), farm all, get all the items all the titles have more money that you need 3 accounts to store it, dance in front of me, shouting "Look look I'm so good" and I will just pick my GF, my friends and go play and have a laugh ot TS, then make some meeting dinner (real life, already did some) and have FUN!

You would be there, alone or surrounded by other pathetic kids, that think success and wealth in a game against AI means anything in real life.

The problem here is you are completely ignoring why other people paid for the game or play the game. I personally don't give a damn about the game economy, but there are a TON of people who do, and your views would completely destroy the game for them. Your ideas of balance and skill that have been added in Guild Wars has destroyed the game for many who paid for a skill game as well (which is even worse because the game was advertised to be this). You are disregarding other people and that is the whole problem here.

[snaek]

@improvavel
i think you take the 50-50 too literally. yes it is 50-50 in terms of pen and paper, but when a player has acquired knowledge and skill he will be able to overcome those situations in his favour more than 90% of the time. overpowered skills can make it 90-10 already on paper, so there is no need to acquire any further knowledge or skill to beat the area consistently.

i really don't understand this mentality that you should be able to beat every area on your first try. while this is important for starting and earlier levels, it should not be the case for end-game levels and more difficult areas. i know new players that fail a hard mode mission for the first time and quit, as if they're supposed to be expected to beat it on their very first try. learning from your mistakes helps you become better. things like overpowered skills hinder the desire to learn from mistakes because they become unimportant to your success.


and to answer your question on what has changed: i think again its about mentality. at first it was perceived as great success because they overcame a challenge. but now, as i said earlier, it has all dwindled down to farming/grinding. its not about beating it once, its bout beating it multiple times as fast and easy as possible so you can get your reward/title.

regarding save yourselves:
its not like when sy was first introduced it was more brokenly powerful than it is now. it was just that we did not have the wisdom to see it at the time. if one could foresee all broken skills from the getgo, then they would not have been created at all--but this is not the case, it takes much time for people to come to these realizations. which is why we have skill balance updates.


and one last thing. i think your on the right track that titles etc. should be meaningless, but in fact, they are not to be perceived as so. i don't think we're arguing so much that we want to make the game harder persay, but just to put the emphasis back in 'challenge' instead of 'rewards'. i do not want the game to be insanely difficult, but i do want the game to be about how good the gameplay actually is, not how good the rewards are when i beat it.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by snaek

i really don't understand this mentality that you should be able to beat every area on your first try. while this is important for starting and earlier levels, it should not be the case for end-game levels and more difficult areas. i know new players that fail a hard mode mission for the first time and quit, as if they're supposed to be expected to beat it on their very first try. learning from your mistakes helps you become better. things like overpowered skills hinder the desire to learn from mistakes because they become unimportant to your success.

Did you beat every area at the first try? Does everyone beats every area at the first try?

How do you know? Or you are just basing your assumptions on your perceptions?

I know some people that are so bad (at the game, so not a mortal sin ) they can't do it even with consumables. I know it is hard to believe, but that happens. So just because you think people will do it first try, by using consumables, I think you are wrong.

So balance is if only a minority can do all?

If more than just a minority start doing it, even if using the same skills the previous minority was using to beat that area, it becomes a problem?

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The problem here is you are completely ignoring why other people paid for the game or play the game. I personally don't give a damn about the game economy, but there are a TON of people who do, and your views would completely destroy the game for them. Your ideas of balance and skill that have been added in Guild Wars has destroyed the game for many who paid for a skill game as well (which is even worse because the game was advertised to be this). You are disregarding other people and that is the whole problem here.

I didn't know economics was skillful guild wars playing. I though you were saying game success was about skill? Now you include economics and titles?

(The following you aren't you DreamWind, but general you's)

Look, you want economics to play a big part in your dream (not using it as irony) guild wars.

In my dream guild wars, economy wouldn't exist at all.

You just can't call me selfish because I don't want to compete with other people in PvE, don't care about economy, just because what you want is some items to great value.

If I'm selfish, you are selfish too. It swing both ways.

And while it is a multiplayer game, it also says in that box I can play alone or with friends, and I will receive my own copy of the world, and I will only combat other people if that is my wish.

Sincerely I wished every single material and rune had a fixed price.

I choose to play with whoever I want, I choose to ignore whoever I want (There is an ignore list in game, so I can disregard people at my will).

And not you or anyone can force me otherwise. And if they try I'm out. And if Anet tries I won't buy Anet games. And that is why I'm playing GW and I'm not playing WoW instead. I knew very well what GW was when I bought the game (factions was out at the time). I knew it was a game I could play alone and interaction with other people was at my choice.

Anet knows that too. Heroes. Scrolls to UW/FOW, DEEP/Urgoz, henchies, Heroes allowed in elite areas.

All signs that Anet allows their player to play it solo, in a small community or as MMORPG.

If I don't want you in my game, you wont be and you can't do shit about it.

It is my copy of the game.

That is why GW isn't an MMORPG.

[Fril Estelin]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

While I know what you mean, that is ridiculous degree level students being unable to do either mental mathematical operations (and these aren't trained nowadays. My grandfather that had poor education was very good at doing real complex additions/multiplications/divisions mentally) or even paper and pencil ones, the fact is sometimes you just need to use maths as a tool without knowing it how it works precisely.

You missed the point: you can't really use maths correctly without understanding how it works basically (I never mentioned "precisely"). It's the same with GW, you can't work "properly" (double quote intended) if you don't understand the basics of game engine (not the details) and the UI.

Emotional intelligence is totally off-topic here and with respect to the internet, because there are no physical cues.

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I don't think you can compare this to a calculator. You can compare it to a computer program that does all the work for you so you don't even have to do any math.

The two are almost exactly the same, at different levels (if I understood you you're talking about software like Mathematica?) I've seen to my students many different stupid use of calculators, because calculators, like programs, just do what they're told and if the humans using them don't know the basics, they'll make mistakes.

That begs the question...what kind of basic tutorial are you talking about if player skill is subjective.

There are many, many types and I'm not interested in discussing them, the point is they exist. I mentioned one above about AB, I've seen many other here on Guru, but all on specific topics and without overall any organisation between them. Even in the game-engine kind of "player skill", there's much to "teach".

Complement to the "multifaceted player skill" aspect I was mentioning before: GW economy, some people are extremely good at it (power trading).

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

You missed the point: you can't really use maths correctly without understanding how it works basically (I never mentioned "precisely"). It's the same with GW, you can't work "properly" (double quote intended) if you don't understand the basics of game engine (not the details) and the UI.

I beg to differ. You don't have to demonstrate a theorem to know how to use its corollary. You don't have to know the equation about critical hits or the equation about caster spell damage to see its effects.

Sorry if we are just saying the same thing.

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

I didn't know economics was skillful guild wars playing. I though you were saying game success was about skill? Now you include economics and titles?

Everything in Guild Wars should be about skill. And I don't care about the economy but I am not saying it can be destroyed like you are saying. You misread my post. The problem here is that you are DISREGARDING how everybody else plays the game using "I don't have to interact with anyone" as your excuse.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

If I'm selfish, you are selfish too. It swing both ways.

I disagree...I think only your view is selfish because you act as if you are the only one playing the game. Just because you can play by yourself has no bearing on the fact that you are in a WORLD with other players. It goes right back to my Africa example. You can live on Earth all by yourself not interacting with anyone if you want, but there are other people in your world. You can not simply say we should add a 10 billion damage skill and god mode to the game even though it would negatively affect a lot of people even if it doesn't affect you.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

And while it is a multiplayer game, it also says in that box I can play alone or with friends, and I will receive my own copy of the world, and I will only combat other people if that is my wish.

You don't receive your own copy of the world. You receive the ability to play in a world with many other players just by yourself if you want.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

And not you or anyone can force me otherwise. And if they try I'm out. And if Anet tries I won't buy Anet games.

All signs Anet allows their player to play it solo, in a small community or as MMORPG.

If I don't want you in my game, you wont be and you can't do shit about it.

It is my copy of the game.

That is why GW isn't an MMORPG.

Again, you are wrong. Anet allows players to play solo everybody knows that, but there will ALWAYS be other people in your game. Just because you choose to ignore them doesn't mean they aren't in the game still. Guild Wars is an MMO and always will be, and if you have a problem with that then I suppose you don't have to buy Anet games.

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

There are many, many types and I'm not interested in discussing them, the point is they exist. I mentioned one above about AB, I've seen many other here on Guru, but all on specific topics and without overall any organisation between them. Even in the game-engine kind of "player skill", there's much to "teach".

I'm not convinced a good guide can be made if we can't even decide why the game is being played and what type of skill should matter.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by DreamWind

snip

There are only a few things that requires interaction:

- rune price;
- material price;
- favor;
- factions borders;
- celestial sigil price;
- scrolls
- dye price.

Other than that it's completely possible to shutdown from the world.

Runes, materials, dyes and scrolls prices can also be ignored if you only play with what you get from drops.

I can have 600 armbraces appear by magic in my inventory. If I don't trade with other people, nobody will know about it, no effect in the economy.

If I don't buy runes, dyes and materials; and don't trade with other people, I can be completely invisible in this game and cause no effect in other people game.

Other than people making material, runes, scrolls and dyes more expensive, they won't affect my game at all.

If I only play with what I get, I'm invisible. Period.

[Gigashadow]

If you also never, ever, appear in a town where any other people are (so that they could see the armor you bought with your infinite gold, or your titles), then yes the above would be true.

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

If I don't buy runes, dyes and materials; and don't trade with other people, I can be completely invisible in this game and cause no effect in other people game.

Other than people making material, runes, scrolls and dyes more expensive, they won't affect my game at all.

If I only play with what I get, I'm invisible. Period.

But if you add 10 billion damage and god mode it affects the entire world. If you change the skill level or balance it affects the entire world. Making changes to the world affects everybody even if it doesn't affect you and even if what you do doesn't affect others.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

If you also never, ever, appear in a town where any other people are (so that they could see the armor you bought with your infinite gold, or your titles), then yes the above would be true.

I can be naked (or starting armor) and display no titles.

Originally Posted by DreamWind

But if you add 10 billion damage and god mode it affects the entire world. If you change the skill level or balance it affects the entire world. Making changes to the world affects everybody even if it doesn't affect you and even if what you do doesn't affect others.

But if it is only for me, no problem. And it is only a problem otherwise if you care about others. Which I don't see why you should?

[Age]

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

I have to agree with you. I just started to dabble with PW and have had much of the same experience. The only thing I find unnerving is the getting married thing, kind of creeps me out.

Yeah especially when they annouce it out.There are those in GW that are married as well it may not say it on thier hero panel but they are.

To the rest of the thread It might help if more exprienced players showed those who play bad if they were to earn triple or quad XP from missions.This includes one like The Great Northern Wall.

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

But if it is only for me, no problem.

Actually that would be an even bigger problem. If only you had god mode there would be the problem of fairness.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

And it is only a problem otherwise if you care about others. Which I don't see why you should?

Because others affect the world I am in. Remember when the duping bug came about it affected the entire game even though I wasn't involved in it.

Getting back on topic though...we are talking about changes to the game world. You are only interested in this thread because it would affect your game and not because it would be better for the game if the changes were made.

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Because others affect the world I am in. Remember when the duping bug came about it affected the entire game even though I wasn't involved in it.

Didn't noticed it.

You are only interested in this thread because it would affect your game and not because it would be better for the game if the changes were made.

No. I just don't want changes based on epenis and status quo maintenance.

[Zetki]

GW is the same as any other game, You get alot of idiots and a small percentage of players that are actually decent. It just takes time to find them decent players but once you've found them the community spirit grows pretty fast.

[DreamWind]

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Didn't noticed it.

But many people did.

Originally Posted by Improvavel

No. I just don't want changes based on epenis and status quo maintenance.

Why would it affect you?

[Improvavel]

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Why would it affect you?

Depends on the changes.

Consumables wouldn't.

PvE skills would. Since I play 2p+6heroes, and I use PvE only skills to cover heroes AI weakness.

But would you just change the way people play and have fun for nothing better than status quo and epenis?

If you are changing stuff make sure it is to make the game more interesting and enjoyable, not to frustrate people to prevent them from getting titles and skins.

[snaek]

@improvavel
so your saying that if a tree falls down in the middle of a forest, it wont make a sound because you didn't hear it?
or perhaps the good 'ol, "i don't believe it exists, therefore it doesn't exist"?

i don't think selfish is the proper word here. its more like narrow-minded.

So balance is if only a minority can do all?

thats not what im saying at all. im saying that balanced can (and should) consist of both easy and hard. it is important to include both. however gw is very imbalanced in that it doesnt really demonstrate this.


one last thing, most top mmorpg's can be played solo (wow included).


edit:

If you are changing stuff make sure it is to make the game more interesting and enjoyable, not to frustrate people to prevent them from getting titles and skins.

thats the whole reason--to create a more in-depth gameplay experience. why must you emphasize titles/rewards so much? as if it doesn't matter how crappy your experience was to get them, as long as you got them, that calls for a good game?


one more last thing, if you want to play a single-player game so badly, why don't you play a single-player game then? gw is a multi-player game, end of story.

the keyword in "you can play gw solo" is the word, can--as in, "you can play gw solo, but it is meant to be played with others."

heroes were added as the option of: "if you can't find real players, then use this option as a last resort."
what really happened was: "why bother to find real players when i can use heroes"